This week's Weird Pick Wednesday zooms in on a controversial pick for bot lane, support Pantheon. Highlighted yesterday in the Top Team Comp: Global Edition, some of you expressed dissatisfaction with Pantheon's abilities as a support. I personally think he's not bad as a support, just maybe not a top pick. Let's check out his kit!
Introduction
This week's Weird Pick Wednesday zooms in on a controversial pick for bot lane, support Pantheon. Highlighted yesterday in the Top Team Comp: Global Edition, some of you expressed dissatisfaction with Pantheon's abilities as a support. I personally think he's not bad as a support, just maybe not a top pick. Let's check out his kit!Strengths
Poke - Although Pantheon has difficulty breaking through high sustain support heals, he can easily take down health bars of popular 21 utility mages like Vel'koz and Brand.
All-In - Against sustain supports, Pantheon can still all-in with an aggressive AD carry to dish a ton of damage, not to mention his auto crits at low enemy health.
Long-range Initiation - Arguably, Pantheon has the longest range initiation of any "support" type champion, and synergizes very well with popular picks like Sion.
Roaming Power - Pantheon's level 2~3 ganks are extremely powerful, which in higher Elo games can be very effective when playing with a more passive AD carry and/or one that tends to push to turret.
Auto-Attack Shield Block - Against AD marksmen, Pantheon is extremely effective when going toe-to-toe simply because of his passive, especially against champions like Jinx.
Weaknesses
Single Target CC - Compared to other kill lane supports like Leona, Nautilus, or Jarvan, Pantheon does lack in multi-target CC. However, the one stun that he does have is extremely effective and basically impossible to miss.
No Sustain - Again, he may have trouble against high sustain supports, especially if he isn't aggressive enough with his auto attacks early game.
Kill-Stealer - With his auto-crits at low health, it's very easy for Pantheon to last hit champions, resulting in more gold for him and less gold for your marksman. While it's debatable if this is a "weakness" per say, I think most ADCs get upset in solo queue.
Conclusions
Pantheon support is a high damage, "carry" type support. He provides CC, initiation, and duels/pokes well. However, he's not a support in the "traditional" sense, and shouldn't be treated as such.
If bot lane starts losing, the ADC should be prepared to turtle under tower while Pantheon roams or wait for a jungler gank.
1st! Yay
ReplyDelete'basically impossible to miss'. Correct. But it can be interrupted by Blitzcrank's Q. I found this out in URF. I think any airborne CC can interrupt it so he doesn't even land the stun.
ReplyDeleteno eone except madlife (without luck) can actually have the asian reflexes of stopping him midair without hitting a creep etc
ReplyDeleteWith the advent of the weird picks, it would be cool if you added them to the main tier list. Even if they're tier 3 or lower it would still be pretty cool. To me personally it's like acknowledgment that it's a thing.
ReplyDeleteYou can actually interrupt it easily with Draven's E.
ReplyDeleteAwesome times playing panth support. very good against aa bot lane comps. easily get back to lane if u messed up an early back. good poke trade potential level 3 and ridiculous all in. If they try to run your q will crit at low health.
ReplyDeleteIf you built Relic Shield that pretty much solves the sustain problem.
ReplyDeleteAlso the ganking pressure you have is insane (alone or with jungler).
Played it a few times and got to say its perfect when playing a Leona or a triple AD comp.
I think his biggest con is actually that he isn't that effective against mobile champs (Tristana/Lucian/Kalista/Graves/Corki/etc.) but still a niche pick to have.
This makes me think of something I've always wanted to ask to better players than myself. Assuming a 5man team, what do you guys think about a Jarvan+Leona (or Leona+Panth) Kill-lane combo bot lane ? Is it worth to try and shutdown the ADC ?
ReplyDeleteThis posits a problem however, where do you send the ADC ? Top ? Mid ? No ADC ?
Anyways this is more of a thought exercise, I tried it a few times with friends with mixed results. The botlane usually had no problem whatsoever, but the ADC in the Top lane was...meh. Maybe its a matter of elo...
Anyways thanks for the help !
FOTM Report about Smite on top laners? :D
ReplyDeleteI think good choices can be: Jarvan, Gragas, Gnar, Nautilus, Rek'Sai, Wukong
They have a nice escape ability early game, and HP or defensive items are good for them, and also boost the cinderhulk enhancement. I don't think Hecarim or Shyvana are great choices in SoloQ.
you can try out this:
ReplyDeletesend Kalista as top adc. She can have 3 ghost exploring the jungle (river, your red/blue and enemy red/blue), this is very safe must say. And she can ult the jungler to unexpected ganks. And with Hurricane she can splitpush very well (sorry for bad english)
Maybe its just that. We were using the wrong ADC. Our ADC player is a Caitlyn main, I guess sending her top may not be best.
ReplyDeleteAlways love your reads. I site a lot of your stuff on my site ProGamerHub.com (always linking back). Keep up the awesome content!
ReplyDeleteanother major weak... extremely bad late game... pantheon is just your extra bag and he will watch you guys died in teamfight...
ReplyDeletewouldnt say extremely bad. his ult is amazing engage late game. land on the carry. q stun e q they should die or be low enough to not be in fight
ReplyDeleteRunning Teleport and Smite on a top laner with no escape mechanic in their kit would only hurt them during the laning phase. If you keep the river warded and play safe to just farm then you'll be fine. This is what every player in high does when they play Shyvanna in the top lane. Shyvanna was the first one to be popular with this strategy because she could reach level 2 quickly by doing a jungle camp. She has the highest clear speed in the game while jungling. Your opinion is bias and I think you should do some research into this meta.
ReplyDeleteYesterday I had a game in which I witnessed a support Pantheon pentakill....
ReplyDeleteFor the next Weird Picks: Braum Top building AS :D
ReplyDeleteks is still wurf, as long as you don't intentionally steal them, you both receive gold, which means better value.
ReplyDeleteThis is the problem with people, they think they're better than others and try to "teach" other people by being rude. I don't care what you think about my opinion.
ReplyDeleteI was asking SSJ.
It's not that he was looking down on you or being rude- he just doesn't think it's effective and explained why.
ReplyDeleteRunning Flash + Smite, Tp + Smite isn't really great imo. Of course I never really seen people do it for the reason that it's an unconvientional thing. You can get easy level 2 with a fast clear champ on krugs/gromp,
but if you run Flash + Smite, no relying on Ignite to finish off an opponent- and if you were low from the jungle clear/lowish, if you recall you can't just teleport back before yur opponent gets free farm.
and if you run Tp + Smite, you leave the best escape mechanism avaliable to you.
And if you go for Ignite + Smite, you have no escape mechanism + if you get fucked early game and you don't have tp, expect the enemy laner to get ahead.
I'm also assuming you want to get one of the jungle items because of chilling smite? That's okay and all and it helps mid game because you can slow the opponent down and take a kill, but I honestly find chilling smite useless end game because end game is more team fights instead of picking off enemies and there are better items instead to pick. And once you do that smite is just smite. I guess double smite is there?
Also- Wukong is a bad choice for the Smite thing. His escape mechanism is not that good at all. If he overextends past river and someone ganks- his 1.5 second decoy isn't going to save you if the enemies are smart. His jungle clear is honestly one of the worst for the first clear so you can't try the quick level 2 from krugs/gromp. Tanky Wukong pales very heavily compared to other tanks and lose killing potential due to lost of ignite, Wukong can NOT tower dive early game at all so it's a try to be safe farm game. I say this as a Wukong main.
Anyways, Pros and Cons
Pros:
+Quick Level 2
+Chilling smite helps secure a kill on a shorter cooldown than the gapcloser flash
+Can also use it to slow down enemy when need to get away
+Double smite for dragon/baron
Cons:
-A lot of laners would lose way too much hp from clearing the camp to hit level 2, and loses escape mechanism if running tp early on.
-Spend extra gold for jungle item as their first/second item pick.
-Has to give up Flash/Ignite/Tp for Smite
-It's very dependant on certain champs as not all can pull this off.
-Chilling smite only works on one opponent if someone ganks you
I can see it working for some champ yeah, going tp + smite but it's a purely farm game then. And to champions that can make it work, it would just pales out compared to the other summoner spells for top lane imo.
Maybe I've read you wrong and you assumed to use Smite in a different way- can you elaborate? I just don't see it being a strong thing to do. Of course this is my personal opinion and I'm going off of assumptions on what I think would happen if someone took smite since I haven't seen it happen before effectively.
:O Thanks for your long reply xd.
ReplyDeleteMy worst lane is Top lane, I don't play it AT all because I suck at it. I asked SSJ for a FOTM report, I don't know pro's and con's about top choices with smite and tp/ignite/flash etc etc. And I'm from South America so I don't write in English that good, so trying to explain everything and answer to you will take me at least an hour, and I won't do that. I was just guessing champs just to make my point. Now I have its report so nevermind. Thanks again, and I still don't care what the other guy thinks about my opinion xd.
No, the problem with you is that you get so easily butthurt when someone proves you wrong and you don't want to hear the truth because you're in denial. This is the problem with a majority of people right now. They think they know everything and are so close minded. When a smart person such as myself comes along to spit that knowledge, they end up getting jealous of the intelligence they wish they had. It's not that I think that I'm better than anyone. It is the fact that you choose to act dumb instead of choosing to act smart. If you didn't care about what my opinion said then you wouldn't of read it and then replied to it. You're contradicting yourself and being a hypocrite.
ReplyDeleteSpending the extra gold for the jungle item as your first/second item isn't a con either. It might be a con if you only build the hunter machete first but it becomes a pro whenever you finish the item because it is a miniature sunfire cape which costs less gold and it has hp scaling based on your other items.
ReplyDeleteI still don't see it being a good thing. I mean it can but still I see it as a situational pick.
ReplyDeleteLooking at this in Early gaming phase
Early Laning Phase: Running Tp + Smite/Flash + Smite, you lose killing potential without ignite and have to duel it out. If you end up losing trade offs and is behind than buying a jungle item is only going to make you worst. You HAVE to win trade offs and get more cs or kills, let's assume you don't though because of the natural disadvantage from item start
You start with hunter machete in the beginning first with 2 pots and you already at an disadvantage with no attack bonus and only 2 hp pots, you start with a longsword/doran blade and you have to buy the machete in your first b as well.
You typically first recall around 800-1200 gold. Let's assume you go even with your enemy laner and they have 1200 gold too. You end up buying a Hunter Machete -> Stalker's Blade with a Ruby Crystal and end up around 300-400 gold? Unless you went Longsword/Doran start, meaning you're out of gold because you had to buy a hunter machete too
However, your enemy laner can pick up a Pick Axe + long sword and have the damage advantage.
You now have to fight an enemy laner who already has a pickaxe + a longsword and you only have +150 hp bonus and chillng smite. At this point you aren't going to win your trade off's with them and they can zone you out/get a kill on you.
You start recalling more often and they just start slowly snowballing from here.
Of course your jungler can turn the tide, but it shouldn't be considered a viable option if you MUST get your jungler to help you out in lane.
It shouldn't be a safe choice if it's "Con now but pro later", same reason why ADC buys 2 dorans blade if they have to recall early- because they can't buy a BF Sword, so unless they want to behind in lane, they need something to help to keep them in lane longer.
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Of course if you win your lane and get ahead of your opponent though than no problem. But that can be said the same if you went Flash + Ignite and went for a normal build. This seems like a high risk moderate reward for it with better alternatives
You're not understanding the advantages here. I'll help you by explaining. When you run smite and teleport, you can go farm in the jungle to get level 2 faster than the other top laner which is why it is used mostly on Hecarim and Shyvanna due to their jungle speed and sustain. You won't be able to lose trades if you are a level ahead of the enemy top laner unless you're gold or below because people in those tiers don't know how to play. Now, after your first back, you go for the stalker's blade which is the blue smite or skirmisher's sabre which is the red smite. SS allows your basic attacks to do true damage for 3 seconds, have vision of them, and have reduced damage for 20%. SB reduces the true damage done to you while also stealing 20% movement speed. Hecarim is built for SB because of his kit which boosts movement speed and Shyvanna runs SS due to her kit which boosts dueling potential. It is only considered a con if you don't buy wards. I don't personally buy another doran's blade when I play ADC if I don't have enough money when I go back because it delays my power spike and build. I rarely have that problem anyway because it usually happens when I get camped or my support and/or jungler is really unskilled. It isn't a high risk with moderate reward either. It is more of a low risk and high reward.
ReplyDeleteThat's what I'm saying though. For champions like Shyvana it works out well because Shyvana clears fast with no worries. Trying something like this though on champions like Wukong or such takes too long without a leash for it to be effective.
ReplyDeleteThere are champions that makes it work I didn't deny that, but in general for Top laners to take it- it's a niche pick. Just because it works for one champion doesn't mean it works for all. I even stated in my original reply "it works for some champ and is a quick level 2"
I go two or one doran's blade depending how well I'm doing in ADC lane. If I need the doran blade to make sure to be able to stay in lane instead of recalling more often I will. (Two doran blade in total, not get 2 more doran blade)
Of course it works for Shyvana, it's been done before and was even moderately popular for a period of time- but should it be a viable option for ALL top lane champ? No. You have to recall the original comment ask if it was good for top laners, not specific champions. I haven't seen a hecarim done it but I assume it would work as well. With these champs then I understand it's a thing that can be done, but in general with top lane champs? High Risk moderate reward.
Of course again, I personally don't run Tp+Smite but other than specific champs, I still don't see it working.
didnt read all the comments but you do realize it was used on lee sin in lcs? and gnar and most top laners that build tanky because cinderhulks 25% is op. thats why its being used/ not being able to get 1v1d by the other top laner leads to easy split pushing later on.
ReplyDeleteYou should seriously watch LCS because you have no idea what you're talking about.
ReplyDeleteYou haven't told me why TP+Smite is better on top lane champs than Flash+Ignite or Teleport+Ignite, only effective on specific champs I already knew it would be effective on. Instead you just went back to the "WATCH THIS CAUSE YOU'RE DUMB"
ReplyDeleteIf you're done arguing than that's alright, if you bring up a valid point on why TP+Smite is good for the average top lane champion, I'll concede but you haven't so I'll believe what I do. I can see tanky top champ doing it for Cinderhulk now in this patch/last patch because cinderhulk is an okay tank item, but there are still better choices out there.
I like how you understand you misunderstood my original statement and didn't want to back up and apologize after insulting me, so you try to brush it off saying "the internet is there. Search for it yourself" even after I did and learned they stated the same thing I did.
ReplyDeleteYou avoided some points I brought up and argue'd others instead because you found it easier to argue with those and cherrypicked stating that because a small group of people did it- it's instantly 100% viable.
I'm done, have a good day :)
Nah ur just being a dick.
ReplyDeleteThey stated the same thing I said and no where near what you said. Wow. You're delusional dude. Please, get some help. I avoided some points that you brought up because I don't feel like having to explain everything to a lazy American. I cherrypicked what I wanted because I figured you were smart enough to find out answers yourself but I guess you aren't and expect me to do all the work for you since you can't conduct simple research which takes about 5 minutes out of your day. There isn't a small group of people who do it either. Over 50% of the games played Shyvanna and Hecarim are with Smite/TP. I know this because I've done the research. I have the statistics to back up this fact. I have my source but you don't deserve it since you're not smart enough to find it yourself.
ReplyDelete