Formerly a common occurrence for a short duration, Vayne top has since fallen into deep obscurity. Although she still crops up once in a while, most Season 5 players remain oblivious to the true power of...Vayne Top...
Introduction
Formerly a common occurrence for a short duration, Vayne top has since fallen into deep obscurity. Although she still crops up once in a while, most Season 5 players don't see how she ever gained popularity in the position, much less remaining viable to this day.Personally, I think her top lane prowess is exceptionally average if not below average, but in the hands of a good player can definitely snowball extremely hard. It's also extremely fun ^_^
Strategy
Most of the time, you just build her exactly as you would a normal Vayne in the AD carry position, rushing attack speed for maximum dueling potential.
If you're snowballing especially hard, you may however want to pick up some health in the form of a Randuin to give your team a little more bulk in teamfights and/or to prevent Tryndamere from diving you repeatedly.
Viability
Strengths:
- Ranged vs Melee does well early game
- Knockback is strong against most melee champions
- Long lane means long chasing room
- Strong poke levels 1~2
- Scales hard into late game
Weaknesses
- Weak against burst mages
- Low escape potential when she's on the offensive
- Takes away a tank from your team
- Weak pushing power before shiv
- Generally doesn't run teleport for maximum effectiveness
When to Pick Vayne Top
Vayne top should never be picked before you're fairly certain who the enemy team is playing top lane.
Vayne does well against:
- Mundo
- Singed
Vayne can potentially do well against:
- Riven
- Jax
- Darius
- Lee Sin
- Nasus
- Shen
- Cho'Gath
As you can imagine, most of these match-ups are extremely fun skill-based lanes that can either go well or horribly wrong. Just remember that without an escape, even if you're doing well, most champions can quickly snowball a lane back into their favor via a gank or two.
Like to live on the edge? Play Vayne top lane!
And that's when the support must buy Zeke's
ReplyDeleteNever tried Vayne, but Quinn top was okay for me. I guess Vayne and Graves can do pretty well also.
ReplyDeleteI remember on PvP as Garen and I was vsing a Vayne. So annoying; couldn't even get up close because she would either use her ability to knock me away, or just run away.
ReplyDelete"Like to live on the edge? Play Vayne top lane!" that's exactly what I don't want, so no vayne for me :P
ReplyDeleteSSJ talk about Malzahar support pl0x. His E gets him gold easily with the Spellthief item. A good level 6 ult with an AOE silence and early poke. High base damages especially with the W that will help in teamfights if you're smart. You only need Liandry's to be able to do damage and can get Void Staff for even more damage once you have Mikael's/Locket.
ReplyDeleteCons would be you'll be oom easily if you don't manage your skills. Might push the wave if you're not careful - unless your adc is fine with it.
Support malz seems kinda risky. His range is shorter than most poke-mage supports and he is lacking in CC. Also you go oom easily since you can't use your E to gain mana without taking farm. If the enemy support is someone like Leona, Thresh or Alistar, you will be bullied hard for the first 3 levels.
ReplyDeleteDamn man!!!! you are smart and I love this idea a lot! It sounds good in theory at least and probably in use too
ReplyDeleteThanks man!
ReplyDeleteIs Quinn top not more of a discussion. A more viable choice, and is the true top-lane marksman.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Jobriq. Plus the all in potential of a Nautilus or a Leona will win them every trade. I think the real problem is that during the laning or a gank you won't really be able to protect your carry.
ReplyDeleteOnly upside is your ability to lock down 1 priority target during TF's when you hit 6.
Moist. Definetely trying this out today
ReplyDeleteCan you do Quinn top lane as well? I play it a lot, and half the time they think I'm a troll, and I wreck the enemy and they regret ever doubting me.
ReplyDeleteI think in addition to this Vayne post, you should also consider doing one on Quinn top as well. Also, there have been a few videos of Quinn mid (hell, even Faker did it!). I think you should consider adding Quinn mid perhaps as well.
ReplyDeletequinn top isn't weird, it's probably her main lane. Quinn mid could be nice for this series tho
ReplyDeleteI am currently trying this out ! :D Hoe i'll do well against a zed
ReplyDeletequinn top is the best ADC on the top lane
ReplyDeleteI think she can outplay 2v1 like Riven, if their jungler is like Sejuani (predictable). But you need a lot, a lot of skill. And she's a very good duelist
ReplyDeletePlz ssj, I would love to see a wierd picks article about wukong mid next week.
ReplyDeleteI've said it before, i'll say it again.. every champion in the game is viable top lane. That is just the nature of the lane.
ReplyDeleteVayne counters melee champs just like a mage would. I go Zigs and Karma top often with great success.
Where Vayne shines is against tanks top lane. This is where she becomes a better pick. True Damage and BORK help her becomes a very strong niche pick. I've played with a few Vayne tops before and it has been awful when they are countered (Teemo Destroys Vayne) and great when they counter pick. Nasus, Garen, Mundo, Shen, Singed.. they are all countered by a decent Vayne.
Quinn isn't actually and ADC.. the best Quinns build for top lane and are slightly more "Bruiser"due to her low range and being stuck in the middle of a fight during a hard-engage. She was never meant to be a bot-lane marksman.
ReplyDeleteThey need to read up on Quinn.. top has been her main lane since release.
ReplyDeleteOnly immobile ranged squishies don't do well in top...
ReplyDeleteTop lane Bard OP.
ReplyDeleteI don't think Wukong mid is considered weird...
ReplyDeleteI'm pretty sure it is. I get questioned whenever I pick it, and most people have no idea it's even a thing.
ReplyDeleteA weird interaction between vayne and darius. If darius ultis vayne but vayne ultimate+tumbles to invis then it'll cancel darius' ultimate and put it on can.
ReplyDeleteNot sure if it's a bug or how darius' ult works but it's saved me more than once
True that, you could pick wukong into the same matchup mid as you would top and people will still flame about it. Wukong mid dominates a lot of champs but people have blinders on about it. it is a mental block that only SSJ can fix.
ReplyDeletehere's a weird pick for you: xin zhao mid.
ReplyDeletehigh early burst, great against low-mobility melees such as katarina
I tried this a dozen times with minimal luck, despite having decent base ratios his mana costs are far to high, this works well if you are duo's with adc and they know how to use your e to push, you suddenly remove the edge on your mana problem, the other issue is that malz has no form of sustain for his adc (tanks have targons others have actual sustain or sheilds to give an edge in trades)
ReplyDeleteI actually saw this a few months ago and tried it myself, the only issue is that once engaged xin cannot turn back, and this depraves your team of an APC, so its a situational pick
ReplyDeleteI do not condone the use of Xin Zhao Mid in ranked
I'd rather play Wukong in mid than top. Although that's partly because every time I play him in top I end up against a Malphite or Darius ;_;
ReplyDeleteI'm pretty sure Quinn was made to be an adc since her blind lets her win easily against Vayne/Miss Fortune etc. Rito just fucked up and gave her a retarded ult.
ReplyDeleteI would too. He is technically better mid than top. But other people believe wukong mid is a troll pick, if he isn't considered to potentially be a mid laner by the masses than that is enough for him to be a weird pick.
ReplyDelete"Vayne can potentially do well against:"
ReplyDeleteNasus
sorry its fasle... only happen if vayne is so fed... vayne just cant run away from gank and or wiether..
basically nasus is safe at farming early and anti-ad champion during mid-late...
I feel like that she was meant to be top but due to the nature of her being a marksman, rather than a melee fighter, unless in valor form, people think of her more as a bot lane champ. If that makes sense.
ReplyDeleteIt has to do with the way vision works. You'll find that Nidalee's spears go invisible when thrown from a bush.
ReplyDeletehitting down nasus is pretty easy early game.. u have a cc , true dmg and a decent vayne can kite nasus for days even if u are slowed
ReplyDeletethen i must play against some bronze players... but only play against her thrice... and won...
ReplyDeleteyeah... vayne can chase you to the hell but cant escape if she is really in trouble... or dodge from wiether.. unless she bought GSS...
A smart vayne wouldn't let you farm as nasus, she'd harrass you the whole time and zone you out of your stacks (because she is smart enough to know how to freeze the lane near the turret). Then when you're low she'll jump on you and kill you. She'll later end up snowballing in lane because of her insane q cooldown especially with youmuus and botrk. Another thing about a smart vayne is she would know what to do when you wither her. Most likely, they would take cleanse and/or mercurial scimi just to troll harder on your poor innocent soul while you die to her damage. If you try to get thornmail, she'l just ignore you while she dives on other important carries... It's not that hard to win lane with vayne top, unless you don't know what you're doing...
ReplyDeleteTop lane Annie is a trollfest, works very well against almost anyone...
ReplyDeleteHaha, Kat support is pretty fun to play. I won at least 12/13 games with Kat support. :'D She's super underrated.
ReplyDeleteIs that a joke?? orrrrrrrrr.........
ReplyDeleteThe thing about having an assassin as a support is that you're not supporting anything. (Don't make jokes about "Death is the best CC" or anything, either. Talon is my go-to mid laner, but I'm serious about this.)
ReplyDeleteHaving an assassin like Katarina or LeBlanc as a "support" only means that it's a kill lane, completely reliant on the assassin getting fed over the ADC so the enemy team surrenders.
Many mages and tanks can make great supports. They tend to have pretty damn good base damage to go with impressive CC, great utility and either strong engage or disengage. Nautilus, Orianna, Maokai, Malzahar and Ziggs; all of them can make incredible supports if they're built to be supports, just like Annie and Morgana. Assassins have none of the traits that make supports what they are.
Talon has the same issues, with no hard CC to back it up (unlike Xin Zhao) and no innate sustain (also unlike Xin Zhao). However, he's one of the strongest assassins and mid laners in the game for the people who learn him. I'd consider Xin Zhao to be a much safer choice for a hard-engaging mid laner than a regular assassin.
ReplyDeleteAs for lacking an APC, AP top laners have become extremely popular lately, especially ones with a ton of CC. Lissandra and Kennen are prime picks in the LCS right now.
I hope it's not too forward of me to ask, but what rank are you? I'm only climbing through high Silver myself, but I've never been questioned for weird picks like Tryndamere mid or Malzahar support. When someone does ask why, I'm more than capable of explaining exactly what makes them good picks for me, and they accept it without a complaint.
ReplyDeleteYou should at least prepare a brief explanation of how you make Wukong mid work so they don't just automatically call you a troll when you may very well carry the match.
Talon can build Ghost Blade and go off tank as support and still be very useful ... being an assassin doesn't mean you have to assassinate... most assassins pack some serious cc and have abilities to let them stick to their target... and make carries disappear from the map in the blink of an eye. Supporting is not limited to Annie or Morgana... if you know how... even Diana and Lissandra can support although I draw the line at Katarina... she is useless support... she just there to steal kills and feed the enemy team.
ReplyDeleteAnyone smart would not let a nasus farm... that's like letting tryndamere farm just more infuriating because when fighting nasus... you believe you can kill him till his last Q evaporates you from the face of the rift as opposed to tryndamere who uses 2 auto attacks and you ff at 20.
ReplyDeleteI don't really play league anymore this season but would like to start again once Iget a computer that doesn't lag when running leauge. I did my10 placements andgot gold, but last season I got to platinumplaying wuk, withabout a 60% win rate most of the season. I do prepare a brief explanation,I just tell them it's a thing and works just as well as zed or talon.
ReplyDeleteI explained very well that mages can make amazing supports, and noted multiple off-meta mage supports that can work out well (which you seem to have completely missed), but assassins cannot do their job as a support.
ReplyDeleteTalon assassinating someone is his job as an assassin. He isn't keeping his carry alive in any supportive sense. He's not disengaging, he's not healing, he's not shielding, etc. He's not even really engaging since he doesn't have the hard CC that would give his team a chance to follow up. He's just doing what he's designed to do and killing the enemy carry, which he can do much better if he builds damage like he should.
I never have problems with mana as Malzahar support, even without the use of Malefic Visions. Malzahar isn't a poke support like Karma; his mana costs and the danger of actually trying to poke with him against hard engage supports make that very difficult. I play him as a disengage and anti-poke support instead, and to great success. He's my main pick into Sona, Lulu and Karma because of how predictable and preventable their poke is.
ReplyDeleteYou never need Null Zone, because it's a massive waste of mana for nothing. Instead, focus on keeping the enemy support from getting any of their poke off. If it's Leona, aim your Q for where she lands her Zenith Blade and you automatically win every trade. Thresh and Blitzcrank are no-gos. The wide range and long duration on Call of the Void will force poke supports back because of Malzahar's high base damage. If they stay in range, you can drop Malefic Visions on them and get easy Spellthief procs.
Don't build damage, either. That's stupid. Supports don't need damage items to function, ever.
Actually, Malefic Visions doesn't have to take farm. As long as the minion dies with Malefic Visions on it, it'll restore mana no matter who actually gets the gold. If your ADC has any idea how to CS, you'll never run out of mana, but you'll also never end up taking the CS.
ReplyDeleteIn other words support Malz doesn't work in solo queue cuz you can't expect that level of coordination from a random. Same reason Kalista is far better on premade teams.
ReplyDeleteI am sorry my point did not come forward as I intended, allow me to rephrase it. Any champion can play support provided the team composition allows it.
ReplyDeletePlaying Talon support with a Kalista is a really bad idea but Talon works very well with Ashe, Sivir, Vayne and Lucian; Talon's Q grants vision, his W is a short duration slow, his E is an instant gap closer which is also slows the enemy down and his ultimate allows him to move in and out of fights while doing damage and getting his ADC and MID fed. Talon support built with a hydra is a very good solo splitpusher which no other "support" can do in the mid and late game. Having said all of that, Talon support is not viable unless you have someone with hard engage in the jungle or the top lane like a Sejuani/ Vi/ Lissandra or J4.
In many team compositions classic supports like Taric, Soraka, Lulu and Zilean become increasingly useless with the passing of each minute as they are too dependent on their team mates and do not bring much of a fight on their own.. their utility is subpar as not everyone can be a Janna or Morgana and their heals become increasingly useless as their team mates pickup health and lifesteal/ spellvamp.
I am with you on your point regarding Orianna but Malzahar is a mana hungry, farm reliant mage and unless your ADC is skilled enough to last hit minions with malefic vision.. you would either run out of mana or be chugging mana potions for a greater part of your laning phase. Malzahar is an easy to learn straightforward mage who brings massive peel and disengage/ engage in team fights but he requires a lot of follow up from teammates and becomes a sitting duck if there are no tanks to protect him or the carries do not follow up.
If engage/ disengage and ability to silence or stun is the only criteria for supports then Anivia, Brand and Fiddlesticks should be played in bot lane more often.
My argument is based on the old meta but in the current season where LCS teams pick double ADC... MAGE top and almost every other game has a Sion or Gnar... I am not even sure if we are playing the same game as them. Heck even Urgot and Yorick have seen more action than many in-meta picks.
I think whatever a team can accomplish with "weird" picks should not concern solo queue players.