I get a lot of inquiries on the tier list as to why Fiora is in god tier, and a lot more comments pointing to that placement specifically as to why the tier list is biased and "wrong". Well let me throw this out there:
I don't like Fiora.
Fiora essentially has no escape (save some fancy jumping), no hard CC, she's squishy, and has no sustain.
Even if she looked like this I'd be hesitant:
Me? God Tier? Really...
So why the heck is Fiora god tier? Truth be told, it's hard to explain why she SHOULD be god tier, and far easier explaining why she IS god tier. Now what the heck is that cryptic message supposed to mean? Check it out:
With a 6.2% popularity rate (which lands her in the top half of champions played) she's had an impeccable top 10 win rate for as many patches back as I can remember.
If that's not enough to convince you, check out this data as well:
With any one of her core items, her win rate is way over 50%, and with her most used item it's borderline 60%! In fact, for the most part it's only the hydra components components that she fails to finish that are significantly under 50%. Luckily, that only happens less than 10% of the time.
So what the hell makes her so strong in solo queue?
Obviously she's not that strong in arranged 5v5 play, or else all the pros would play her and I wouldn't have to deal with everyone complaining anymore (see Wukong).
Personally, putting her laning phase and almost complete lack of utility aside I think it boils down to these three points:
Inability to Finish Her Off
I strongly believe that the reason Fiora is so high up is the same reason Kayle is so high up. In solo queue, the enemy team tends to target the most "dangerous" target first. This generally means whoever's the closest and looks like a glass cannon.
Who looks more like a glass cannon than Fiora?
However, once your team blows your major nukes and CCs on Fiora, they're no longer immediately available for use on the remainder of the enemy team. Meanwhile, if you haven't managed to kill Fiora, she'll simply use her ultimate, rendering herself completely invulnerable along with regenerating all her lost life via hydra's lifesteal while she beats your confused squishies senseless.
Meanwhile, she's also...
Unable to be Ignored
While some other top lanes like Olaf or Renekton can be ignored in solo queue if they're not far enough ahead and the AD carry has enough lifesteal, even a moment ignoring Fiora is certain death. That means that the AD carry HAS to deal with her first, and all of his time spent AAing her almost always ends up being completely negated during blade waltz with lifesteal.
Finally, there's...
Lack of Respect
I think this is another major point in solo queue that helps Fiora tremendously. At the moment, she's still an underdog with most other tier lists denying that she's any good and simply choosing to ignore the fact that she just always *happens* to hit that end game ace and finish games.
This means that many people simply see her as a glass cannon that their AD carry should be able to take down with one person peeling. However, after getting aced a few times, teams begin to start the blame game as they don't understand what's going on...
---
Conclusion (tldr;): Fiora's been a crappy champion in the past, but in the current meta she's *just* tanky enough to survive long enough to soak all of a team's damage and has *just* enough damage to take down enemy squishies. Apparently that's enough for solo queue.
What do you think? Comment below!
Credits:
Arya picture from Game of Thrones
Statistics from Lolking.net
I've definitely wondered this many, many times. I appreciate you taking the time to write out your thoughts on the matter.
ReplyDeleteI hope the rework wont make her stronger
ReplyDeleteGood article SSJ. despite my disagreement with you :) and the fact there are better (imo) picks for people in soloQ! :)
ReplyDeleteHahahahaha this post makes so much sense it mildly annoys me.
ReplyDeleteDespite lacking CC and escapes, Fiora probably has one of the strongest laning phases and can easily zone her opponent and deny him CS.
Even though she falls of a bit late game, being able to bait the enemy team into focusing her, and then doing her Ultimate before dying gives her teammates the upper hand to ace them and go for the win.
Very good post.
FIORA SUCK, FUCKING BIAS SHIT!!!!
ReplyDeleteI still think Malzahar, Viktor, and rengar deserve their own tier :)
ReplyDeleteAgreed with rengar
ReplyDeletebut rengar and malzahar?
not really sure about it
Malza is really strong actually :P
ReplyDeleteI love these analysis articles you're doing now. Win-rate is top priority, and cutting through wide-spread perceptions has to be done. "I think this champion is weak/strong" doesn't matter when we can look at a win-rate...oh Fiora is 53.19% and has been that for a while now? Definitely god-tier worthy imo.
ReplyDeleteWhere did you get that "Item Usage for Fiora" chart? I checked lolking and couldn't find anything like it. I must know this.
ReplyDeleteWin Rate alone isn't really that informative a statistic. It's kinda amusing to think about, but taking it too seriously is a mistake.
ReplyDeleteyou need to go to the champions site and on the overview part is a picture of the 5 most used items. In the top left corner is a little symbol, and if you click on it the picture expands, on this way you get to see all items that are most used for her and its win-rate
ReplyDeleteI hope to god, it does. She deserves to be able to do more dmg
ReplyDeleteNo, but Win-Rate is the 1st most noted statistic for a Champions status in the tier system
ReplyDeleteIt shouldn't be. There are so many variables beyond the actual power of the champion that go into the statistic - assuming that there's a 1:1 ratio between general viability and win rate is misguided, and leads to (imo silly) stuff like god-tier Fiora, Amumu and Warwick.
ReplyDeleteFor example - I do not like playing Yasuo. I think he's a really boring champ and I'm not really comfortable playing him in most matchups. However, if the other team picks Nidalee blind, I'm still gonna pull him out because that matchup is so great for Yasuo. So, if you look at my win rate with Yasuo, you'll be mislead, because it's not actually my win rate with Yasuo, period. It's my win rate with Yasuo in ridiculously one sided matchups. So, if there are a bunch of people like me who only play Yasuo when they're confident they can win lane and snowball, you'll end up with a win rate that doesn't actually reflect a champion's overall viability.
Also worth considering are the circumstances under which a champion will most probably be picked. Master Yi, for instance, is infamous for his vulnerability to hard CC - he is not a champion that I would pick unless I knew that at least 4/5 of the enemy's champions lacked the ability to lock me down. So, my win rate with Master Yi doesn't actually reflect his general viability (which is absolute trash, ofc), but rather his viability in those select few situations where the enemy lacks any cc. This is also relevant to champions like Tryndamere or Fiora who have very similar roles (being a ball of numbers and hoping your numbers are bigger than the other guy's numbers) and vulnerabilities (hard cc).
In a similar vein - Warwick and Wukong are relatively well known for having very powerful ganks after level 6, but relatively mediocre ganks before then. So, as a jungler, I will only consider picking them up if I'm confident that my teammates will be able to survive the early game without much help - like, if I'm working with Renekton top, Syndra mid and Lucian bot, I'm gonna be a lot more willing to play Warwick or Wukong. So, again, my win rate with those champions fails to reflect the weaknesses that make them subpar choices overall.
So, in short - although very powerful champions will likely have high win rates. having a high win rate isn't necessarily indicative of a very strong champion. Champs with very polarized (and well known) strengths and weaknesses like Kayle, Amumu, Leona and Fiora will naturally enjoy a high win rate because they are generally chosen in situations that cater to their strengths and fail to abuse their weaknesses. A tier list that derives its rankings solely from win rate will end up putting too much priority on niche counterpicks and too little on all-around good champions.
Everything he has presented, makes alot of sense. To not call her a good champ, is being crass and naive,
ReplyDeleteThis is incredibly unhelpful.
ReplyDeleteThank you so so much!! :)
ReplyDeleteYeah I didn't really believe the list until a played a few games as her and wrecked face.
ReplyDeleteExhaust onto Fiora...? QSS Remove the damage reduction part too right? LoL wiki says it doesn't.
ReplyDeleteImo Fiora is even stronger in the jungle. Her passive gives her almost Warwick levels of jungle sustain, to the point where I take a ward instead of 3 health pots. Her clear speed is one of the best in the game so she can stack Flare very very quickly (max E). And her post 6 ganks are absolutely terrifying - ult - Q - AA - AA - Q - should get the kill even assuming the laner sits there wanking off while you gank.
ReplyDeleteTl:dr
Fiora has:
High jungle sustain
Monster clear speed (just below Shyvana and Udyr, especially once she gets Tiamat built) AND scales very well with Feral Flare
Excellent early 1v1 potential
Wukong-level post 6 ganks
I've been playing fiora since beginning of Season 3 and she was probably the first champ I really learned and understood how to play (pertaining to items, runes, etc.) I mainly played her in the jungle (the q - w ganks are real) but I don't hesitate to play her top lane when needed. I think essentially what makes her so strong is her ability to get ahead quickly. Once she pulls away from her opponents, as long as she escapes any bit of CC on the other team, she deals huge amounts of damage the completely shred enemy teams. Meanwhile, the enemy teams attempts to shutdown fiora while her teammates continue to burn down the enemy team's health. She's really a strong champion and I hate that people refuse to pick her for her lack of "escape"
ReplyDeleteThis is not a reason to make Fiora tier god, Guinsoo's next Fiora rework IS a reasion to make her tier god. (¿New ulti = URF Fiora? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? OP QQ GG)
ReplyDeletemalz uber strong solo q er reno
ReplyDeleteWell as a Fiora main the reason why she is in god tier is that her damage out is exponential compared to her input toppled with the fact that people tend to underestimate her dueling potential even if she is behind a level or two, she will always deal more damage than you expect and with the upcoming changes for 4.10 you can be assured that BloodThirster will be more of a common item on her for offensive kits while BotRK will be its defensive counterpart. (TL;DR) Fiora deals more damage than expected and can still kill champion 2 levels above her
ReplyDeleteI agree jungle fiora is strong but your early levels 1-3 are really weak leaving you open to invades from stronger champions who have a better lvl 1-3 even at lvl 4 fiora's dueling potential is iffy at best, but on invades from a champion like vi or elise you should have the upper hand thanks to riposte
ReplyDeleteFiora is a good champion as she is now she doesn't need the rework, if anything people complain about her high damage but in the trade off she lacks any CC at all (Just like Full AD Yi with his spammable invincibility) if anything needs a good nerf to damage potential its renekton who brings a crazy amount of damage and utility to his team at little to no trade-off
ReplyDeleteI don't think that argument works. The structure of the pick/ban system means that for every yasuo picked to counter a nidalee, there would be a kayle picked to counter yasuo (or whoever, the actual champs don't matter). Unless you have some kind of stats on particular champs coming in at a certain pick positions a large amount of the time in response to certain other champs, suggesting they are often used as counter picks, then I think its reasonable to assume that the pick ban system and player preferences would ensure an even spread of counter picks and non counter picks for any given champ.
ReplyDeleteAlso, you have to consider the sheer sample size that the win rates are working with. To take up yasuo as an example again, for the last month there have been around 23,000 yasuo picks a day. A sample size of 23,000 a day would be big enough to iron out any random anomalies that might crop up in a smaller sample (I am guessing anyway). The win rates on lolking are working with such a huge amount of data from all regions and levels of player skill that they probably reflect the balance of power/difficulty for each champ pretty accurately.
Anyway, I'll end that blob of text by saying that I'm not suggesting that there aren't flaws in the winrates. I'm sure there are some somewhere, and people smarter than myself could probably work out some interesting stuff using lolking and other stats. But overall, especially for solo queue, they are probably quite accurate and I think that suggesting champions win rates are skewed by niche counter picks is not a strong argument. /end rant
I would love to have those stats to work with - I dunno if it'd even be possible to get access to them if you didn't work at Riot.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, returning to the Nid->Yasuo-> Kayle example, the point isn't so much to argue that these specific three champions are mostly used as counterpicks. Rather, it's to raise the possibility that they might - I obviously can't demonstrate that a significant portion of Yasuo players have a similar impression of his use in draft pick, and never pick him blind to *be* countered by a Kayle. At the same time, though, SSJ can't demonstrate that they don't. And, unless he can, there has to be an asterisk after every win rate percentage leading to a footonote along the lines of 'This may or may not be because the champ is generally strong.'
The sample size point would be relevant if we had access to the specific stats, but we can't really draw any conclusions from it. 23,000 is a pretty big number if there are 50 dudes like me playing Yasuo, but it's not going to 'iron out' 2,000 dudes like me. And again, the point isn't to claim that there *are* 2,000 dudes like me - rather, I'd like to suggest that the possibility be considered when evaluating the significance of win rate.
Ultimately, the basis of my entire argument is that people will usually pick champions they think they can succeed with, which I don't think is terribly unreasonable or exclusive to higher elos. If Kayle is disproportionately picked into all-in assassins, you'll see her win rate rise relative to what it would be if she weren't. Or really, if [any champ] is disproportionately picked into [champs they're good against], you'll see their win rates rise relative to where they'd be otherwise. The champions that benefit most from this effect are naturally those with *particularly* good matchups - for instance, Kayle basically hard counters every assassin in the game if she's fast enough at hitting R, whereas, say, Shen doesn't really have matchups - he's probably not gonna die in lane, and he's probably not gonna kill the other guy without jungler aid.
So, if you accept my premise: that people will usually pick champions they think they can succeed with - and its corollary that power is one of multiple factors that inform a champion's win rate - I feel that win rate alone is not sufficient to explain the absurdly high placement of a champion that 'essentially has no escape (save some fancy jumping), no hard CC, [is] squishy, and has no sustain.'
If the issue was power, Riot could just buff her. The idea is that Fiora lacks any sort of cohesive identity beyond 'ball of damage with some untargetability thrown in.' She currently occupies the creative niche of 'fencer,' and Riot would like her gameplay to reflect that. As it stands, she could look like Tryndamere and her kit would make just as much sense.
ReplyDeleteYou do realize that acording to your statemens and point of view Heirmendiger, Ramus, Fiddlesticks, Swain, Malzahar and even Sona could all be consider god tier, you can not make a tier list considering only win rate, there are various niche picks, that are only used for specific situations, and even then there are so few ppl that play them that its even rare to see them in those circunstances, yes ppl shy away from these champions because, we dont see them in tournamens and tend to underestimate them and dont play them, but that is actually the reason of their high win rates, because we dont see ppl just playing them tinking if i pick them insta win and end up feeding instead, like we see with Lee sin, Vayne or Thresh, wich are actually hard to play chams that u would normally not pick, but because the hype behind these chams we see them feed and lose games.
ReplyDeleteYes I think that statistics are a good indicator for a tier but there is more than that, like champions that benefit from the current meta, how safe they are, or how high the reward for playing that champion is in comparison for the risk, u have to think of the champions as a whole not an individual view of a certain champion.
Actually you're both wrong here... sort of... Champions who are used almost entirely as counter picks don't have high popularity. Fiora is in the top 10 champions for top lane in popularity out of 23 top laners (not including nidalee or various niche picks), more than just counter picking. If a champion is only good in a couple situations and are played in those few situations, they aren't going to have a high popularity because those few situations aren't going to happen a majority of the time. Sure Top lane Leblanc may suddenly be the greatest counter to Renekton ever, but that doesn't mean Leblanc is going to suddenly have top 10 popularity as a top laner. If there are 23,000 games played a day for Yasuo or Fiora or whoever, that means that champion is useful in several different scenarios where she's viable.
ReplyDeleteSo, she's picked enough to be viable in various situations based on her popularity and has a high win rate. Thousands of fioras a day are picked as counters and in return, also counter picked against. She isn't strong against every top champ, because if she was she would have top 3 popularity and an even higher win rate and would be more respected. She'd need an escape for that to happen though.
Another factor to consider is that he's backing up the win rate with valid reasoning. If win rates and popularity were that inaccurate, they would be ignored entirely either way, but he's also giving you explanations as to why it's working.
Plus Jax has a higher ban rate then Kassadin at 83.64%, and Jax is Fiora's strongest counter. Sorry to those of you who think A good Fiora can stand toe to toe with a Jax; If two players have the same skill level, the Jax will win 8 out of 10 games. It's a matter of kit match ups. If you beat a Jax, good for you but he was probably just a weaker player. I yolo'd through bronze with AP top lane Alistar on a side account just to prove this point.
With your number one counter banned out 8 of 10 games, you can blind pick Fiora all day and all night.
I think you're missing the point a bit. Neither of us actually have complete enough data to conclude which factors are leading to any given statistic - the information on lolking or op.gg is amusing, but horribly uninformative. What I'm doing is suggesting possible scenarios that don't contradict the information we do have, that could all explain or partially explain Fiora's bizarrely high win rate. One of them is that she's actually really frickin' strong despite her *numerous* flaws. One is that she's often used as a counterpick. One is that she's often picked later in pick ban when she knows the other team won't have much hard cc. I'm sure that there are dozens more that I simply haven't thought of. Maybe the enemy team saw you pick her and thought to themselves "Oh, this poor guy must be new to ranked, let's give him a win so we don't scare him out of the scene."
ReplyDeleteMaybe not the last one.
Regardless, bearing in mind that I'm not actually claiming that any of those things are true - unless you have access to privileged information that somehow enables you to produce an exhaustive list of all possible factors that contribute to win rate, win rate alone is not sufficient to justify *any* placement.
And I'm severely unimpressed by the reasons offered here. You know who else can't be ignored, can't be finished off and gets no respect? Poppy. The most convincing observation of Fiora's merits he gives here is that she's squishy, has no CC, no escapes, and no sustain.
There's enough information between all the data to say with confidence that she has the stays to be good tier. If she's popular enough to be in the top 10 top laners and still have a high win rate, and she's only being picked as a counter, then clearly she's either countering the strongest common to picks, aka the meta, or she's being picked as more than just a counter and still winning.
ReplyDeleteChampions who are picked solely to counter others have ridiculously low pick rates. Look at Yorick for example. His popularity is laughable because he's a solid counter pick, but not much else.
You don't need tons of different chats to connect factors. What is this lack of information? It gives you the building blocks to form your own data off of. If you need to find something's velocity, you can find it with time and distance. You don't have to just get given velocity to find it.
Side note, if I play Yasuo to counter Nidalee, Nidalee's win rate will reflect that as well, and Nidalee will be picked to counter someone else a different game warning back the win. Chances are the games where the champion is used as a counter pick are similar to the games played where that champion gets counter picked if they have a high enough popularity.
No one questioned Yi being god tier and Fiora is a clone... movement speed attack speed steroid that gets a lowered cooldown in kills and assists, a single target gap close, an AD passive buff, and time of high damage invulnerability. Sure Fiora is a trash champion but with a clone kit to Yi, someone who's found his way to god tier, is this really so shocking and difficult to accept?
My first post on this site was literally questioning Yi being god tier. So, not a very convincing example.
ReplyDeleteI like your velocity example, though. Let's run with that. So, we can derive velocity from just two variables - distance and time. Those are the only variables that are relevant, so if we know what they are, we can conclusively say what a given object's velocity is.
Now, let's apply that same thing to Win Rate. What's the equation there? Provide me with an algorithm that accounts for literally every relevant variable, and then provide the information to solve for every single one of those variables.
And then once you've tried doing that for five or ten minutes, you'll understand what I mean when I talk about the lack of information.
When doing an experiment, there's room for error which is written as a percent for give and take. It is 53% +/- 0.5% as a random example of numbers. You don't need to have the exact amount to come to an end result which is reasonable. Chances are all those little variables that you mention impact all the champions at the same time equally enough (not perfectly equal, just similarly) that the possible 1% change it's caused has also been caused to every other champion.
ReplyDeleteAnd again, this is a solo q meta tier list. If a champion is popular enough to be top 10 played in top lane while still holding a good win rate, then that champion is either countering a LOT of games, therefore most likely playing against the meta and thus countering the meta, or is just winning against several different champions, making that champion have versatility in several situations which leads to wins. No matter the way they got wins, a win is still a win. Having a higher win rate with higher popularity means that clearly there's something more than just a fluke or a lot of people playing to counter with Fiora. Winning consistently within or against the meta is enough to be God tier because at the day, you still walk out with those wins. If it was urging popularity with a high win rate, sure I'd be worried too and question it, but popularity along with wins rules out a lot of smaller variables that have little to no impact, and I'd those variables are large enough to actually heavily away the win rate, then that variable is large sure but it still means consistent wins at the end of the day.
Ok enough of this it's father's day. I have to meet up with my brother and take my old man out for dinner to celebrate. Have a good father's day and don't spend too much of your time replying to this instead of enjoying the day :)
You don't know what the variables *are* or how much impact they have, and you're *still* hand waving them away.
ReplyDeleteI think I'll take your advice.
TL;DR, Why Fiora good in solo-queue. Her ult is OP in team fights.
ReplyDeleteMalzahar is strong because he's so easy to play. He has a great landing phase due to easy farming with his E, and his ult makes him practically unbeatable in a duel.
ReplyDeleteFiddlesticks was god tier in the jungle before the fear nerf (more of a balance) actually. Also it's one thing to have a good win rate, it's another to have good popularity. If Fiora is winning mute thna losing while still breaking into the top 10 top laners in popularity, then clearly she's doing something right here. It's enough games to no longer be a niche pick, or just enough niche picks to mean Fiora works in several different niches, making her rather versatile.
ReplyDeleteBut the other aspects are things like what does it take to shut down a god tier? Pretty much the entire team's focus and attention at all times. What happens when Fiora is left alone for 5 minutes? She breaks 2 towers and an inhib, goes up about 48 cs, and threatens the whole game. Fiora is also really good at getting kills, so it's even harder to keep her down of
Side note her clear time isn't even close to fast before itemization. Sure with a read she clears ore no problem but what champion doesn't? Fast clears are ones like Amumu, Udyr, and Shyvana. They all have a lot of AoE damage and good single target damage (or in Amumu's case just even MORE AoE) which allows them to clear all creatures at a camp in one go. Those are fast clear times no matter what they build.
ReplyDeleteAll of the statstic go togeter its a mistake to take one into acount without the other, because then u only have half the information, an leads to this kind of things, but okey if she is able keep the win rate, when she becomes popular she will be good tier, but that is not happening right now and is not the case.
ReplyDeleteThe same applies to trynda even if he is 0/5 he can destroy your inhib if u leave him alone and he will scale better than fiora.
Another point that I would like to add is the jaximus effect.Most games jax is banned, who makes fiora useless during lane phase. When he gets banned I feel she can fam "easier" thus having a nice transition to mid game where she does have enough burst to remove any squishies from a fight before dying or living.
ReplyDeleteMalzahar is an absolute monster in lane and teamfights. One decent q in a teamfight is gg.
ReplyDeleteYou must get a lot of situations where u get to be fifth pick mid or top.....thats not realistic. Every champ isnt picked into a counter situation. If u look at his god tier its champs who offer something every time, every comp.
ReplyDeleteFirst off, I can play that game too - you must get in a lot of situations where the enemy doesn't pick their mid and top in the first one or two rotations.
ReplyDeleteSecondly, you're missing the point. I'm not saying the Fiora is picked in x y and z situations that make her win rate misleading. I'm saying that you don't know that she isn't.
she is tier one, not god tier the reason she has a high win rate is because people are too stupid ot build fuckin thornmail which immediately removes her from the game if too many people get it because she wil llitteral y kill herself.
ReplyDeletedon't believe me/ the easiest pentakil live ever seen was in OFAmirrormode where the game picked fiora, one person built thornmail and everyone died in seconds.
everything you say puts her in tier one, the gaping hole in her defense that is thornmail stops her fro mbeing god tier.
you have good point tho.
please excuse my quick typing
ReplyDeleteI main Fiora and I agree, she doesn't seems like a fancy duelist, she seems more like a flippin' ninja.
ReplyDeleteLol. Just pick a Malphite against her and gg. She might be able to push well but if Malph decides to come closer (as he will for sure), she has to back out because she can't out trade him.
ReplyDeleteSo she will be zoned from cs and xp. And Fiora, who is behind is a useless Fiora, because she can't offer nothing else (cc, utility) then damage, so she is very item dependent. However an unfarmed Shen still can change fight, just has to be more careful since not that tanky.
Quit hating on Fiora, she is god tier and you're not so get over it.
ReplyDeleteno complaints from me, Fiora is evil. Soon as you think she's dead, she laughs at you, vanishes, and you have to kill her again.
ReplyDeleteFioras passive does give her sustain just letting you know that fact was somewhat false :)
ReplyDeletewin % is a bad reason for fiora being god tier seeing as almost all win % is from bronze-silvers playing the game. it doesn't make fiora god tier in the true definition of what tiers are
ReplyDeletefiora is simply not commonly used in plat+ ive never seen it so far. just like how I rarely see amumus in my elo. anyway you need to reevaluate how you do tiers
I don't agree fiora's lategame falls off.
ReplyDeleteIf fiora manages to get her full item build(which she often does off her godlike laning phase and midgame) then god save you.
Hydra, Last Whisper, Ghostblade and either inf edge or bloodthirster + GA and boots make her laugh at the health bars of even tanky champions lategame.
Sure, a tanky dps may be able to finish her off in a teamfight, but what good is that after shes nuked your carry and taken a decent chunk off all of your team's healthbar's and come out on full health?
She's not in god tier just for her win rate though.
ReplyDeleteYou're claiming that an item that admittedly few people build is all it takes to keep Fiora out of god tier? Thornmail is only a good idea on front liners, whom Fiora will ignore in favor of the adc and ap carry. It can certainly be built in lane to counter her if the champion you chose functions with it, but even then, it exhausts its use later on.
ReplyDeleteFalls off (a bit) late game = Her teamfight potencial is under average.
ReplyDeleteHer strong point is picking off people who are isolated, but in a teamfight, the best thing she can do is bait, use ult, die, and let her team clean up the fight.
That is why her win-rate is high.
Well, if you look at stats, fiora has an even higher win rate in diamond than in low elo, but i agree that if fiora is a god so should heimer, swain, fiddle, and kog'maw because they have similar win rates. Fiora being god tier was a stretch to me though she definetly is high tier 1 because of the win rate.
ReplyDeleteI play Fiora A LOT, she is my main. Once i reach full build, i feel almost immortal. That being said, i'm still crazy squishy in team fights. Fiora is one of the best duelists in the game, and in my opinion, one of the worst team fighters. That's why i let my whole team group for the push, and then i take the furthest away lane. They can only afford to send one person to put me in check, lest my team gain some serious ground, which i then squish and drop turret.
ReplyDeletei think the reason why you are always squishy in teamfights, including some other people who have written similar posts, is because most people don't see the power in an item called "frozen mallet" which works amazingly well on her, (it makes her ult slow aswell, it makes her almost impossible to escape except with flash or other blink type abilties which she can negate if she still has another Q left) and it gives her 700 hp which allow her to survive through fights alot and i mean ALOT better, and building it doesn't lose you all that much damage.
ReplyDeleteu dont need the slow as fiora in most cases (2 dashes and a speed boost, + ulti as a potential 3rd gap closer) and mallet is extremely inefficient. with 200 gold more u can get a BT which will give u vamp, higher ad, and a shield that will b just as if not more useful than the hp from mallet (u basically vamp the shield to full previous to ulti as well as having additional vamp for other cases) not saying that BT is amazing on her or anything, but atleast better than a mallet the base stats of mallet is below 90% and stats scale multiplicatively (eg if u have armor then health is worth that much more) so having enough defense to survive the initial burst is sufficient.
ReplyDeletemallet is more of a luxary for when u are extremely ahead and just want to faceroll.
i disagree that fiora should be "god tier" because she can be stopped by hard cc like stunning her before she can parry. she casnt dodge then so you get free damage off like if you were renekton and you want to bully her before 6 you can e w q e so you stun shred armour and get life back and she can do nothing about it. if you get a lead on her and again are renekton and she dives you, you can ult and take like no damage and be even more tanky and you can stun her under tower. you will most likely kill her and therefore get extra gold to get damage or tank items and you will dominate her in lane and she will be useless after laneing. But that's only my opinion dont know if others have realized this but this is just me.
ReplyDeleteInteresting, but I have a question...if you have the lead then why is she diving you? I don't think this Fiora is playing correctly.
ReplyDelete"A good Fiora can easily go toe to toe with a Jax" - What? Lol no. A good Fiora will never be able to beat an average Jax. A good Jax won't lose against any Fiora but the very best ones.
ReplyDeleteThe whole Jax skillset is basically a giant EFF YOU FIORA. And although the matchup favors heavily knowledge, Jax still has the upper hand even with imperfect information.
The reason Fiora has such a high winrate is because Fiora excels at two things: taking structures down and dueling. Once you complete Hydra your farming capabilities become godly, then, once you have the new Bloodthirster you can duel pretty much anything but a few champions and survive after the kill.
And to shut down a splitpusher you will need coordination and timing, the two things that cannot be practiced in Solo Queue.
You don't mention her counterattack, and damage passive. it makes it very easy for her to last hit minions and control top lane. And if you force the jungle to help top lane that should be a pretty big victory for the rest of the team, provided skill levels are on par.
ReplyDeletethis
ReplyDeleteGangplank and Poppy
ReplyDeleteAgainst minions it gives you really crap sustain and you can only get better sustain against champions if you hit them a bunch of times, by which point you will lose a lot more health than you gain from the passive.
ReplyDeleteJust like Shaco, she's just doing Fiora things. Everyone Fiora I've ever played against his super cocky and ALWAYS gets fed. Clearly, this only happens because no one knows how to deal with her. She's starting to become the top laner version of Pentarina, honestly.
ReplyDeleteI think the main reason she's in god tier is because in soloq, NO ONE KNOWS HOW TO DEAL WITH HER. They just look at her and say "That's a champion? What......" and then get smashed. With Hydra, she can kinda hit the whole team like 5 or 6 times and gain life steal off of it, and then just parry when she comes back from her ult, kill someone, lunge to another, kill them, lunge again, kill, speed steroid, kill kill kill kill kill kill kill... She can backdoor like no other, and then duel you're whole team and probably come out alive, maybe just a little scraped up. Jax counters her, but with his super high ban rate, who else is going to stop her from doing Fiora things?
ReplyDeleteIt's not so much that they don't know how to deal with her, its more that Fioras tend to have a better understanding of the matchup. Most matchups are favorible to Fiora in that she has the tools to outtrade and outplay her opponent.
ReplyDeleteTake Jax for example, her top counter: Jax's e allows him to wreck in trades. But, in Fiora's kit, she can wait for lv 4 - for her second point in q - she can bait out Jax's E with a passive aggressive trade (like Q > AA >Q away to a minion), and retrade once her Q is up.
Fiora's similar to Old Riven or S3 > 4 Renekton in that she does too much damage in trades for enemy champs to even deal with her - without ganks, there simply is no way to deal with her.
then why arent they god tier?
ReplyDeleteI really don't understand the apparent nerf coming her way. I mean she relies on items to counter the enemy team. Depriving farm, hard cc, healing reduction and armour are all good ways to reduce her ability to do damage to you. Hell I'd even recommend getting Thornmail and Ninja tabi on an adc if she is fed. Combined with Ignite and its good night Ilene. I believe most of this QQ is coming from bronze and silver players who when they face a Fiora player are facing a Bronze Fiora who has the skills of a Silver/Gold (just stuck in Elo Hell). This means that even though you might kill her a few times early game she easily out farms you in the laning phase. I remember being owned by Malphite in lane as Fiora and ending up having double the amount of farm he had and only dying twice to him by level 10.
ReplyDeleteEveryone says Jax is her counter. Yes he is. But in extended fights. Fiora is a burst champion and a duelist, so it might take some time to kill jax, but she will generally employ baiting tactics to get rid of his E early game in order to trade. At level 3 (1 level in each QWE ability) there is a three second window of opportunity where your abilities will be refreshed and Jax's E will still be on cooldown. In addition that thing is really mana expensive, which can enable Fiora to zone Jax early and maybe get ahead with farm and/or a kill.
ReplyDeletePeople who main Fiora know both her and her counters really well. Pantheon you build armour and a Sheen first (Chain Vest) and malphite is the opposite (Megatron Cloak + Sheen). Jax you counter play and get a Blade of the Ruined King for some cc (in case he decides to Q away) and the extra AS in case its a long skirmish.
The fact of the matter is she has a good pick rate these days but no one really knows much about her. No one seems to want to tower farm against her (Avoid harass - bait ult under tower) and no one builds items to counter her and put her behind.
The nerf isn't needed. People just need to adapt.
Even a slow cc can go a long ways to reducing her damage output in lane. You harass her and she comes back for some damage and you slow her as you run away. Even if she lunges you twice and uses E the slow will still reduce the number of auto attacks she can get onto you. In addition she will attract aggro from your minions which she just ran through and now has to ran back through as you now pursue her. Tower farming can also enable you to reduce her damage output and harass. No one seems to take Exhaust against her. Which would totally dampen her damage output against you should she come in to kill you that one time under tower and fails. Tower farming would open her up to ganks and she has no reliable escape mechanism (E - unreliable - u need stacks) besides Flash. Just too many dumb players out there who like to QQ.
ReplyDeleteMalphite is a good counter but Fiora's strength and weakness has always been using items to counter champions. If I was duelling Malphite, in the laning phase I would buy a Negatron Cloak, Sheen and Vamp Scepter. Late Game my build (depending on other team members) would be, Ravenous Hydra, Blade of the Ruined King, Last Whisper, Mercurial Scimitar (To counter his E), Randuin's Omen (tankiness) and Mercury's Treads (To mitigate is Q). As such you want those early game items to trade better and to enable you to farm without being pulverised by his Q harass (which does magic damage).
ReplyDeleteBeing a Fiora Main player in Elo Hell that is how I effectively play against him. My aim isn't to kill malphite but to outfarm him and make my mid to late game as strong as possible.
Thornmail and Ninja Tabi. It will tremendously reduce her output of damage. Just from those two items alone (excluding armour) it reduces her damage and lifesteal by about 37% (conservative estimate - its either that or 63%). The armour will reduce it even further by an additional 65% or so. For example she does say 350 AD damage. With just these items it is reduced to 71 AD damage and thornmail will give out 42 magic damage (assuming she has 130 mr). Take into account the other adc is there as well you are effectively reducing the lifesteal and damage output of at least two champions. I'd build it on my ADC if she got fed.
ReplyDeleteThat mentality is the exact reason why so many Jax's get facerolled in Bronze and Silver by Fiora's. I'm Jax I am a hard counter blah blah blah. No need to worry about counter playing her. I see E go on or she attacks me near tower I put my E/R on. Jax very easy to counterplay. Bait those two moves out and he's a sitting duck.
ReplyDeletelink me the nerfs
ReplyDeleteIt was not just win rate. If you read the damn thing, you'd know that. I assume you think you did, but after "win rate" tuned the rest out.
ReplyDeleteWhy do you people continually fail to recognize her pick rate and the fact that even if she loses lane, if your team can hold them off, she then goes on to win the lane? How about the fact that her ult can literally make a team waste all their cc on her and if she lives, four take about 25%-50% damaging, depending on the squishy composition and who you picked as first target? The only time Fiora is a poor choice is if your team feeds early (which one cannot know) and lacks the CC to back you up (which is a gamble with the first point). I've literally gone 0/5 lane phase because of janglers trying to shut me down but end up 10/5 or so by the end of the game because she can come in and cleanup a group that has no strong cc left, with ONE item (hydra) which Yi cannot do because after one Q he is vulnerable and a Shiv is not enough to turn that (and I.E. or something similar is costly, though about the range to hydra as it is to shiv, but the point is Fiora gets more benefit quicker from her go-to item).
ReplyDeleteThe real problem is that her Ult can heal her back up due to the proc'd on-hit-effects while she is completely untargetable and thus invulnerable... it's like a zhonya's dealing damage in an AOE and healing for like half her HP with no kind of counterplay possible other than a zhonya's(which most AD top laners don't happen to have). Granted, pre-Hydra, that is a non-issue, but still, as most fioras rush Hydra, that is maybe 2-5 minutes after her getting lvl 6 that she starts being obnoxius as hell
ReplyDeletetrynd's counter is ignite, which any smart midlaner should have(except xerath and maybe AP ezreal) whereas fiora gains full invincibility+dmg+lifesteal by one single ability, and there is about nothing to counter that, granted that barely anyone that isn't rammus builds it
ReplyDeleteno matter how good you are with jax, if your E is on cooldown, your death is inevitable agaisnt a fiora, unless you're really fed and don't even need the E, and i have to agree with brian, well said!
ReplyDeletepoppy has way too much mana cost and gp has no escape
ReplyDeleteyeah, sure, but he is neither untargetable nor invulnerable, which is the problem with her ult... Its basically a free zhonya's that deals damage and heals you while you sit back and watch
ReplyDeleteFiora is not invulnerable with her ult, AOE spells still hit her (trust me, I've died as Fio and killed Fios like that)
ReplyDeleteAlso, if u target her before she ults, while she ults she will get damage (I died to a leblanc like that.
And people should realize her Ult is quite easy to cancel, just enter the grass and see Fiora stand still, looking stupid (I've gotten kills as a squeashy, dueling Fioras who thought they'd just ult me)
Really she's not so OP, but as the post says, people don't really know how to play against her.
I agree with the post, but some comments here are somehow stupid
If people would just learn how to play around her, then this wouldn't be a problem.
ReplyDeleteDid not read the whole article, explained quite a bit more than just the win rate.. Top lane champions can beat Fiora, but if it is only a couple kills and extra farm she will still kill the squishy champions in the back line during team fights. Hard cc will counter her.. but few champs can say hard cc doesn't counter them. Voyboy played her many times while streaming and even if it was trouble early... he made it to the squishy champs later.
ReplyDeleteso what you are saying is that ninja tabi and thornmail alone reduce 80% physical damage? do you even math? Also do you rly think by the point where the adc and or apc build those items that fiora won't have 2 armor pen items?
ReplyDeleteYou level q last of all her abilities. W is so much better due to the passive ad she get from it and then an auto attack reset on a shorter cd is better than the lunge which only has the base dmg go up slightly. her e also is an as steroid so it helps her literally shred towers. there's a reason I rush a yomuu's once i finish hydra.
ReplyDeleteYup... god tier. I agree. or tier 1 if enemy is good, maybe.
ReplyDeleteMaximum DisRespect against fiora; you get rekt
I have played 100+ games, I will say something that helps you win with her is to build lifesteal and ad like they say, but get attack speed and crit strike too. If you build her like yasuo you can win almost ever time. The best thing you can do as fiora is learn what moves you can use her w on, once you master that you will most likely win.
ReplyDeleteIrelia, more or less
ReplyDeleteSwain Actually is untargetable and invulnerable while he is in zhonyas, and still deals damage and gets healed.
ReplyDeleteBut also immobile and you can time the expiration of zhonyas for some follow-up abilities. With fio you never know at which of you allies she's gonna reappear, making it harder to punish her for going all in on your team with her ult.
ReplyDeleteFiora reappears on the target she began with
ReplyDeleteOh alright.... still, I think it's harder to time for followup CC than a zhonyas, but thats just me^^
ReplyDeleteif she buils hydra the splash damage in the jungle will make her clear the camp in one go by just hiting the main monster.making her a very good jungle pick
ReplyDeleteactually provided that your not against a rumble or a darius you can q > aa > q > aa then run away and usually you will deal more damage/ even damage against the laner (even with minion agro). and with full stacks on your passive you end up regaining a substantial amount of health. besides that you can just make sure you auto a minion every couple of seconds to keep your passive running.
ReplyDeleteI agree. Been playing fiora only for the past couple weeks. have a 72% win rate and 2 pentas
ReplyDelete"You level q last of all her abilities."
ReplyDeleteI must say that this is completely wrong. Fiora is going to want to max her Q(Lunge) first and max her W(Riposte) last. Her Q is her bread and butter ability as this is going to enable the rest of her kit. She will be able to stack her passive much quicker to sustain after a heavy trade and is going to be able to ramp up the movement speed steroid from her E(Burst of Speed) to disengage after a small skirmish. You should only take W at level 1 and max it last unless you are facing a lot of auto attack harassment from a ranged champion. Her W gives 15AD at level 1 rank and only grants 5AD per level in rank afterwards up to 35AD overall. Her Q is her main damage source and not maxing it first would be idiotic because it has a 16 second cool down at level 1 and an 8 second cool down at level 5. Also since her W has a much lower cool down at level 1 rank this already enables her to win AA trades anyways. The problem with maxing W first is not only causes it grants 5AD after level 1 but that it does not scale with AD at all. Fiora's Q has a 60% AD ratio and cast the ability twice dealing up to 120% damage overall assuming you land both casts.